In Conversation with Jennie & Mark
Tune in to In Conversation with Jennie & Mark, a fun and engaging podcast where two lively vicars share their thoughts on the Bible passages they’ll be exploring in church next Sunday. With a light-hearted approach, they dive into the scripture, offering fresh insights, quirky reflections, and plenty of laughs along the way. Whether you’re preparing for Sunday service or simply looking for a thought-provoking and enjoyable listen, this podcast is the perfect way to get inspired and find joy in God’s word. Join the conversation and see what’s on their minds this week!
In Conversation with Jennie & Mark
The Anointing: When Worship Gets Scandalous
"Leave her alone." Three simple words from Jesus that still give us goosebumps today. When Mary broke open a jar of perfume worth a year's wages and poured it over Jesus' feet, using her hair to wipe them, she created a scandal. The intimate act violated social norms, and Judas immediately criticized her "waste" of resources that could have helped the poor. But Jesus saw something deeper happening—a sacred moment of devotion and preparation for what was coming.
This powerful scene from John 12:1-8 unfolds at an already extraordinary dinner party. Lazarus, recently raised from the dead, sits at the table with Jesus. Martha serves the meal. And Mary performs this extravagant act of worship that fills the entire house with fragrance. The setting bristles with tension as Judas, who we're told was skimming money from the disciples' funds, poses as concerned for the poor while Jesus defends Mary's right to express her devotion.
The passage raises profound questions about our priorities. When should we focus on practical charity, and when should we simply worship? How do we balance meeting physical needs with spiritual devotion? Jesus doesn't dismiss caring for the poor—a constant theme in his ministry—but reminds us that recognizing sacred moments matters too.
As we enter Passion Sunday and approach Holy Week, this story invites us to consider how we might pour out our own devotion. Are we willing to risk looking foolish to others? Can we recognize the times and seasons for different expressions of faith? And how might we listen for Jesus's gentle defence when others criticize our authentic worship?
What extravagant act of worship might you offer this week? We'd love to hear how this conversation resonates with you—share your thoughts or subscribe wherever you get your podcasts.
you are listening to in conversation with jenny and mark well, hello, I'm reverend mark adams from saint margaret's church, barking and I'm reverend jenny adams from holy trinity prince consort road in south kensington and this is in conversation with with Jenny Amott Welcome, that's us so Mothering.
Speaker 1:Sunday has happened. How was Mothering Sunday for you, jenny? It passed very well really. We had Bishop Sarah, bishop of London, visiting us. Yeah, there were quite a few people in the congregation. They all turn out to have a look at a bishop, don't they? But the service went well smoothly. She preached well being the bishop.
Speaker 2:Well, of course Did she preach on Mothering Sunday, as it were. I mean, she preached on Mothering Sunday.
Speaker 1:There was a nod to Mothering Sunday. We don't do it much.
Speaker 2:We do more Lent for, but there was was well, mothering sunday completely took over st margaret's. I have to say we did have a great time. We had a lovely turnout of people, we had flowers which we offered and it was great. It was all good. So thanks to everyone who made that possible. It's really good. But lent moves on and we are now heading towards Passion Tide starting on Sunday.
Speaker 1:So what have you got going on for?
Speaker 2:that.
Speaker 1:We have a BCPU quiz service.
Speaker 2:Excellent. We don't like to mix it up, it's the first day of the month, so we've got two All Ages in a row, so it's going to be interesting, not the easiest passage to do for all age, I think. But we'll see what my colleague father lee makes of it what this one?
Speaker 1:oh yeah, I don't know. I could do you think you've gone for all those, okay, okay, well, let's get into it.
Speaker 2:So it's 12, 1 to 8. So perhaps, jenny, you'd like to read that for us.
Speaker 1:Here we go. Six days before the Passover, jesus came to Bethany, the home of Lazarus, whom he had raised from the dead. There they gave a dinner for him. Martha served, and Lazarus was one of those at the table with him. Mary took a pound of costly perfume made of pure nard, anointed Jesus' feet and wiped them with her hair. The house was filled with the fragrance of the perfume. But Judas Iscariot, one of his disciples, the one who was about to betray him said he said this not because he cared about the poor, but because he was a thief. He kept the common purse and used to steal what was put into it, jesus said. Jesus said, leave her alone. She bought it so that she might keep it for the day of my burial. You always have the poor with you, but you do not always have me.
Speaker 2:This is some dinner party, isn't it? I mean, just Lazarus is there, who's just been raised from the dead. I mean I think you know I got a lot of questions. Really, dinner party conversation must have been well sparkling.
Speaker 1:Yeah, it was a bit of an awkward dinner party. Judas there hanging around causing a bit of grief.
Speaker 2:Judas there hanging around causing a bit of grief, so they've. I mean, uh, so yeah, they've got a celebratory dinner for Jesus, having just raised Lazarus from the dead. I mean, you know, I'd have thought the topic of conversation might have been like Lazarus, what was it like, don't you think?
Speaker 1:I'm intrigued maybe we just skimmed over it, pretended it hadn't happened, tried to act as though it's normal yeah, there's nothing normal actually about this passage.
Speaker 2:We're kind of not really in the realms of anything normal here, I don't think. But it is a beautiful passage, it's an amazing passage, it's one that's common to, I think, all of the Gospels, although this is the only one. Someone might correct me, but I think this is the only one where Mary is named as the one who does the anointing. I think in the others the woman is unnamed.
Speaker 1:Okay, Go on then. What stands out for you?
Speaker 2:Well, apart from the fact that, firstly, it's a very interesting dinner party and it must have been a fascinating group dynamics going on. Yeah, I think the astonishing thing that I've always thought about this passage is that we call Jesus the Christ, the Messiah, which means the anointed one, the anointed one, and jesus is anointed in many different ways, through his ministry, but he isn't. This is the. This is actually where he is anointed. I think that's what. That's what I think about this. It's just this extraordinary thing, uh, and it's done in such a way which is scandalous, really it's scandalous. What if you were at a dinner party and a woman came in and started breaking perfume over someone's feet and mopping it up with her hair? I think we would be fairly scandalised by that.
Speaker 1:Possibly not as scandalised as they would be. But yeah, I'll come on to that in a moment. Ok, so I'm always struck by the fact that she actually had it, she was keeping it and she hadn't used it for her brother who had died. Oh yes, Okay, I mean Jesus says she was keeping it for the burial. She might keep it for the burial, but I mean she hadn't used it for her brother's burial. She really was keeping it.
Speaker 2:Well, not really for the burial, because she's using it now, but but yes, I mean, and, of course, an astonishing value of this perfume, the overwhelming sense of it filling the house.
Speaker 1:It's, it's a you know what it's like when somebody's got a strong perfume on. You can imagine it, can't you?
Speaker 2:Yeah, and it's such a rich passage, isn't it? It's such a rich image and the smell of it and what's going on. And then you've got this really fascinating conversation with Judas, who's the sort of curmudgeon.
Speaker 1:So before we get to, that shall we talk about the hair?
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay, let's go for it. You talk about the hair.
Speaker 1:I think I've told you this before, haven't I? Why it was so scandalous to wipe your hair on your feet.
Speaker 2:Go on.
Speaker 1:Okay, so it was their view of how reproduction worked um right so they believed that semen was stored at the head and um the testicles, weighed it down to keep it in your body and a woman's hair. You worked almost like suction straws would suck it up and out and into hers.
Speaker 1:So no, you haven't told me that before I've not told you this, okay, which is why you had to keep your hair covered at certain points and why men shouldn't have long hair because that would work against their reproduction, when it was that, um which? But it's not just hair, it's very, very intimate, it's very personal, it's part of.
Speaker 2:I don't think you even need to go that far to see it as extremely intimate and personal, do you? But you're right. So, where I've never had that before.
Speaker 1:I'm going to say probably don't use that in your all-age service.
Speaker 1:No, no, I think that's probably wise um, I can't remember where I first heard it, but I have looked it up several times just to make sure. Um, and there are different versions of it. Um, there are some that say that because of women, of certain jobs, they believed that once it was in the woman's body it was stored in the hair and therefore, if they were wiping the hair on, that was even worse. But yes, it's all to do with kind of dodgy thoughts of reproductive cycles and how it worked to make it even more intimate than just the hair. But I mean, it's still quite intimate anyway.
Speaker 2:But yeah, yes, and I think there's an indication in some of the other passages where you know, if there's usually a Pharisee hanging around in some of the other ones, and if this man knew what sort of woman this was, he wouldn't be allowing this to happen, and you know that sort of thing. So there's certainly a so yeah, and yet this is the anointing, this is what it means to be the anointed one in actual, that kind of way. So it is an extraordinary passage, isn't it? What would you think you'd want to share from this as a kind of point for us today?
Speaker 1:There's a line that always gives me goosebumps and it is when Jesus says leave her alone. Leave her alone, and it's just such a simple line. But I think more people should say it. It's the best way to just cut bullying or anything else. Just leave her alone, and there's just something very gentle about it. But you know, to have Jesus standing up for you I mean, I know Wynne is very intimate, she's just anointed him but to have Jesus on your side and just go, just leave her alone.
Speaker 1:She's just doing what's right. I think I would probably build something on that, because it I don't know, I can't even tell you why, but it's the bit that really kind of just gives me goosebumps well, it's interesting then in that sense, isn't it to look at it in terms of the reaction that that jesus has that to what judas is saying?
Speaker 2:so you know, let, if we bring judas into the, you know, bring the. If we bring Judas into the, you know, bring the bit about Judas into the story. He's, he's, he's the curmudgeon, isn't he? He's the. He's the kind of party pooper in the corner who's, you know, kind of saying what is this going on? What's what? What does this woman think she's doing?
Speaker 1:yeah, what a waste of money. What a waste of money. What a waste of money I could have stolen.
Speaker 2:And well, john likes to kind of get in there, doesn't he?
Speaker 1:And kind of twist the knife a little bit.
Speaker 2:We don't want to be under any illusions about you know that Judas is a Roman, but nonetheless, I mean, in one sense I'm going to say Judas makes a point, doesn't he? I mean, it could have been.
Speaker 1:Think of the good all that could have done. Well, that's where we always come to when it comes to Mary, martha and Lazarus, isn't it? Because even that, mary and Martha I mean Martha had a good point Some stuff has to be done. I always feel that when this family are involved, there's always you know, you can see it from either side they're really good stories, um, because you can start placing yourself and seeing where you are, and in many ways, they're not yeah, and of course, the other story, which are they yeah, and the other story which, of course, you know that's true is is the one that is hinted at in this the resurrection of lazarus, or when lazarus is raised from the dead.
Speaker 2:Yeah, it's, uh, you know, course it's mad. What do you mean? Taking the stone back? It is going to smell. You know she has a good point. I think that's an interesting observation, that, yes, when Mary, martha and Lazarus are involved, they often have some good points. And yet, and yet, and yet. I think what Jesus is saying is you need to see what's really going on here the priority is time and place, really so it's not wrong to sell stuff and give it to the poor, but you know time and place.
Speaker 2:There's a time for worship, there's a time for I guess it needs to come back to the the leave her alone thing from there, then, doesn't it so? So, yeah, jesus is being very firm in a way, isn't he? And I think you're right, that's a really interesting line. Leave her alone. You kind of wonder how he he would have said it, don't you? Um, I don't think there's any way of saying it.
Speaker 1:That isn't just protective and and simple, it's just yeah. Even if you shout it, it's still very simple words that convey so much.
Speaker 2:Yeah, yeah, and it just shows how much Jesus refuses to be scandalised by Mary and what she's doing. I mean, I guess maybe Judas is a bit scandalised as well. Is there a bit of element of that in here? What does this woman think she's doing? You know she could have sold it for the people.
Speaker 1:Maybe a little bit of jealousy. Do you know what I think?
Speaker 2:A bit of jealousy, closer to Jesus than he is Quite possible, yeah, and of course, you know, people have speculated for 2000 years about what it was that pushes Judas over the edge, and I'm sure there's a lot of different things around that aren't there?
Speaker 1:We won't cover that tonight. No, I think we've done enough.
Speaker 2:Just to come to the final words of jesus, then, because again, this can be misinterpreted, can't it? You will always have the ball with you, but you can always have me. I mean, again, I think it's that sort of similar thing, isn't it? So, you know, some people have sort of interpreted that, well, it doesn't matter about helping the poor, does it? Because there's nothing you can ever do about it.
Speaker 1:Oh, right, okay.
Speaker 2:Have you ever heard? Of that sort of thing.
Speaker 1:Well, I just thought it was obvious. Well, I mean, 2,000 years later we've still got the poor. I mean I just thought, yeah, I mean they're always going to be rich and poor, it doesn't? I didn't feel that we were aiming to eradicate barely completely. We were just aiming to help and try and even stuff that stuff out. I mean, where would you even start trying to eradicate this?
Speaker 2:Because you've got the whole world. Yes, yes, although it doesn't mean to say we necessarily have to accept that, but perhaps that's a different point. I think the point here is is that this worship of jesus is so overwhelming, isn't it? Um, and the route perhaps to making a more just, equal society is through following christ. So you know, there's that kind of sense of it, isn't there that, uh, it's not all just about being utilitarian.
Speaker 1:I think that says to me yeah, I hear it in the same way as the mary and martha story, really. Um, in as much as there's always stuff to be done, there's always Paul to help, but we should take time out to worship. You know, mary had chosen to sit and worship and there's a time to do that. Mary had worshipped here. There's a time to do it and she seems to know the time. She picks her moments really. But that's not suggesting that everybody should sit there pouring, you know, nard on his feet every five minutes, but there's a time and place. Horses for courses.
Speaker 2:So, really, this is about inviting us to give all of ourselves in worship, isn't it?
Speaker 1:Yeah, I would say what would I take from it that we should be making time for worship? Yeah and lent is a good time to look at that, to check that we are prioritizing it. Um, you know, we are taking time. We can refresh our lives. If we let it slip and we're doing other things, we can start, start again. We can start again. We can start again all the time, um, because if lent's the spiritual spring clean, that's a good time to look at it.
Speaker 2:But yeah, I'm saying launching into passion time, aren't we? So you know, we know what's coming, we know what's about to be around the corner, and this is all part of that preparation for it, isn't it?
Speaker 1:yeah, so what are you going to do for all age service?
Speaker 2:well, I'm going to sit and listen to see what father lee decides to do with this, so that'll be great for me. Uh, I really like your idea of leave her alone, I think if I was thinking about that on sunday, I think I would be wanting to develop something around that and something about the way that Jesus just has this presence. And yes, they, they, maybe, they. Maybe Judas goes up muttering behind his hands, but he's not going to argue with him, and that's because Jesus knows who he is and he knows what he's about, I think that was doing all age, which I'm not.
Speaker 1:I would be focusing on the smell of worship.
Speaker 2:Yeah, okay.
Speaker 1:And I think you might find there's incense in your church on Sunday morning. If it was all age you'd be getting incense now. Okay, there you go.
Speaker 2:Well, on that note, I think we should draw our thoughts to a close, but thank you everyone for listening. We'll be back next week with more thoughts about the reading for Palm Sunday. Have a great week, whatever it is you're doing. Take care Bye-bye. Thank you for listening to in conversation with Jenny and Mark. Please subscribe for more episodes on all the usual podcast platforms.